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Use of Tables for Web Page Layout

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Andy - 20 Jun 2009 23:19 GMT
Hi,

I am presently using XHTML and CSS for all my web page design needs.
However, I still find people use tables to layout content (entire
pages) instead of CSS.

Are tables still being used for web page layout? Lidl's website comes
to mind (http://www.lidl.com).

Would it not be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
instances when layout with tables would be better?

Cheers,

Andy R.
Gary Peek - 21 Jun 2009 01:49 GMT
> ... be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
> instances when layout with tables would be better?

When you actually need to get some work completed.

One place I find tables to be better is when I have tried
for hours to make a layout work using CSS, researched the
problem for hours, found out that there are numerous "hacks"
for _maybe_ making it work in the more ignorantly designed
browsers (guess which), and then just giving up and using
tables, which work the first time, with all browsers, (and
looks fine).

(And makes everyone happy except those who "View Source" and
say, "They did that layout with tables, that's naughty!")
Chaddy2222 - 21 Jun 2009 06:15 GMT
> > ... be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
> > instances when layout with tables would be better?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (And makes everyone happy except those who "View Source" and
> say, "They did that layout with tables, that's naughty!")

This argument of useing tables for layout, or not has nothing to do
with looks. It has a lot to do with makeing websites more accessible
and user-friendly, by useing code that is marked-up sermanticly. In
other words, if something needs to be placed in a paragraph,, then use
one. If you want some kind of colum layout, use div's and just float
the content. It is not hard, http://3rar-sa-assoc.org.au does not use
a single table.
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
Jeff - 22 Jun 2009 15:02 GMT
>>> ... be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
>>> instances when layout with tables would be better?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> the content. It is not hard, http://3rar-sa-assoc.org.au does not use
> a single table.

  Chaddy, I'm going to give you some advice even though you may not
want it.

  "Columns" should all start at the same height.

  Colors should all have the same relationship whether are all the same
hue, are triads or complementary.

  Watch your negative space.

  Jeff

> --
> Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
Scott Bryce - 21 Jun 2009 14:34 GMT
> (And makes everyone happy except

the person who has to maintain the site.
Alfred Molon - 25 Jun 2009 12:49 GMT
> > (And makes everyone happy except
>
> the person who has to maintain the site.

My site is based on tables and it's not a problem maintaining it. But I
heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find tweaks to
make the site look the same in all browsers. CSS for layout is a
maintenance nightmare, because browser versions keep on changing and new
browsers hit the scene.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 25 Jun 2009 13:35 GMT
> .. But I heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find
> tweaks to make the site look the same in all browsers.

How many visitors do you think will come to your site with Browser A,
then fire up Browser B and visit the same page to see if they look the
same?  Only us developers do that...

> CSS for layout is a maintenance nightmare,

Funny, I've always thought the exact opposite.

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  -bts
  -Friends don't let friends drive Windows

CJM - 25 Jun 2009 13:40 GMT
>> .. But I heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find
>> tweaks to make the site look the same in all browsers.
>
> How many visitors do you think will come to your site with Browser A,
> then fire up Browser B and visit the same page to see if they look the
> same?  Only us developers do that...

Besides, the rendering of tables in browsers varies slightly anyway.

The sooner people stop searching for pixel-perfect solutions across all
browsers, the sooner they can concentrate on providing a good visitor
'experience'.
Ben C - 25 Jun 2009 14:48 GMT
>>> .. But I heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find
>>> tweaks to make the site look the same in all browsers.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Besides, the rendering of tables in browsers varies slightly anyway.

It varies a lot once you start messing around with colspans, percentages
etc.

Main problem is most of it is not specified. You can't even say, this
browser is right and that one wrong. The rest of CSS on the other hand
is specified fairly tightly and browser conformance gets better all the
time.
Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 02:18 GMT
> How many visitors do you think will come to your site with Browser A,
> then fire up Browser B and visit the same page to see if they look the
> same?  Only us developers do that...

They come with browser B and do not see what they should see.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 26 Jun 2009 05:17 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>> How many visitors do you think will come to your site with Browser A,
>> then fire up Browser B and visit the same page to see if they look
>> the same?  Only us developers do that...
>
> They come with browser B and do not see what they should see.

Then your work is incomplete.

Keep in mind what someone else said here, that attempting to achieve
pixel perfect precision in layout is a fruitless task.

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  -bts
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Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 13:05 GMT
> > Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
> >> How many visitors do you think will come to your site with Browser A,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Then your work is incomplete.

Now it looks like you got confused. We were saying that with CSS for
positioning, the look changes with the browser. But I have not tried to
use CSS for positioning, so it's not my work which is incomplete.

> Keep in mind what someone else said here, that attempting to achieve
> pixel perfect precision in layout is a fruitless task.

But I do achieve it. With tables and CSS you can define how many pixels
wide things are.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 26 Jun 2009 13:24 GMT
>Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Now it looks like you got confused. We were saying that with CSS for
> positioning, the look changes with the browser.

No, we (TINW) were not saying that. We (I) were saying that visitors
using browser A or B will not care if there are a few pixels difference
where a heading or a button appears in their viewport, because those
visitors using one of those browsers will not use the other to compare.

Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's heading
is 24 pixels from the left margin; in browser B, it is 27 pixels! Shame
on Alfred!" No, I can't imagine that.

> But I have not tried to use CSS for positioning, so it's not my work
> which is incomplete.

If you haven't tried it, how can you be sure?  ;-)

>> Keep in mind what someone else said here, that attempting to achieve
>> pixel perfect precision in layout is a fruitless task.
>
> But I do achieve it. With tables and CSS you can define how many
> pixels wide things are.

With, say, <div> and CSS you can define how many pixels wide things are
as well.

You are saying "I have only ever eaten vanilla ice cream. I hate
chocolate ice cream."

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  -bts
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Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 13:50 GMT
> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's heading
> is 24 pixels from the left margin; in browser B, it is 27 pixels! Shame
> on Alfred!" No, I can't imagine that.

They obviously don't count the pixels, but a few pixel width difference
is easily noticed and changes the look of a site.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 26 Jun 2009 14:17 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> They obviously don't count the pixels, but a few pixel width
> difference is easily noticed

Not if they haven't seen it in browser A.

> and changes the look of a site.

"Chocolate ice cream."   ;-)

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  -bts
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Alfred Molon - 27 Jun 2009 02:18 GMT
> > Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
> >> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not if they haven't seen it in browser A.

What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what I
want to avoid.

> > and changes the look of a site.
>
> "Chocolate ice cream."   ;-)

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Jerry Stuckle - 27 Jun 2009 02:21 GMT
>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>>> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>> and changes the look of a site.
>> "Chocolate ice cream."   ;-)

One of the biggest mistakes people make is in thinking they can control
the look and feel of the site down to the pixel.  You can't - HTML is
designed to be a fluid medium, and different browsers may very well show
differences in the pages.  Additionally, the user may even change
options such as font size - either in the browser itself or the entire
system.

If you want a perfect page which looks the same on every system, display
a PDF.  Otherwise - design your page to be fluid and work with different
browsers and font sizes.  No, it won't look the same under all
conditions.  But do it right and it will look good under all
(reasonable) conditions.

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Alfred Molon - 27 Jun 2009 09:12 GMT
> One of the biggest mistakes people make is in thinking they can control
> the look and feel of the site down to the pixel.  You can't - HTML is
> designed to be a fluid medium, and different browsers may very well show
> differences in the pages.  

My site looks the same in Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera and IE (the latest
versions). There are minor differences in IE, because IE uses cleartype
and the page is a bit taller than it is in the other browsers.

> Additionally, the user may even change
> options such as font size - either in the browser itself or the entire
> system.

Changing the font size on a site like mine makes no sense unless you
also change the size of the images. But the images are only available in
predefined sizes on the server, so if you want to increase or reduce the
size of fonts, it's better if you use the zoom function of your browser.
But that does not alter the look of the site.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 27 Jun 2009 11:06 GMT
> My site looks the same in Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera and IE (the latest
> versions).

..on your computer. How will it look on mine? On a hand-held device?
Have you looked with Opera's View > Small Screen ?

You also said:
> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.

Of course you do. That's not the problem, which really is you thinking
you can achieve this pixel-precision on *everyone's* computing device.

Aside:  while your site is quite good-looking (already told you that)
your layout looks kind of silly taking up only a small strip of space in
the middle of my 22" wide-screen monitor.

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Alfred Molon - 28 Jun 2009 05:30 GMT
> > My site looks the same in Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera and IE (the latest
> > versions).
>
> ..on your computer. How will it look on mine? On a hand-held device?
> Have you looked with Opera's View > Small Screen ?

Opera mini zooms down nicely the site on the Palm Centro (320x320
screen) smartphone I'm using. The browser gives you the option of
zooming into the pages of the site. The look of the site is maintained.

> Aside:  while your site is quite good-looking (already told you that)
> your layout looks kind of silly taking up only a small strip of space in
> the middle of my 22" wide-screen monitor.

The software the site is based on has no way to know how wide your
window is, which is why it chooses a certain width. Otherwise I would
have to code my site in Java or another client side script, but I'm not
really crazy about that.
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Jerry Stuckle - 27 Jun 2009 11:52 GMT
>> One of the biggest mistakes people make is in thinking they can control
>> the look and feel of the site down to the pixel.  You can't - HTML is
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> size of fonts, it's better if you use the zoom function of your browser.
> But that does not alter the look of the site.

Maybe it makes no sense to you - but to someone who's getting a bit
older and using a high resolution screen, I run my browser one or two
steps larger than the default.

I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.

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Alfred Molon - 28 Jun 2009 05:30 GMT
> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.

Why don't you use the zoom function of your browser?
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Mark Goodge - 28 Jun 2009 09:30 GMT
>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>
>Why don't you use the zoom function of your browser?

I have to admit that I'm with Alfred on this one (despite the fact
that I dislike using tables for layout). All the major browsers have a
zoom function built in to them now, so it's extremely easy for the end
user to increase the overall size of everything displayed on screen
while at the same time maintaining the layout and proportions intended
by the designer.

Designer-side kludges such as alternate stylesheets for different font
sizes are a throwback to the days when browser support for zoom was
restricted (I can remember when only Opera did it properly) and IE, in
particular, didn't do it very well at all. But that's no longer the
case; all the major browsers have fully supported zoom for some time
now. And zoom also allows the end user to blow up or shrink text set
in pixel or point sizes rather than ems, thus negating one of the
biggest arguments against using fixed sizes for fonts. That's not to
say that using ems still isn't worth doing in some cases, but in
reality you'll usually get better cross-browser consistency, without
compromising the end user's ability to make the font bigger or smaller
if they want to, by using pixels.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 28 Jun 2009 12:56 GMT
>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>> Why don't you use the zoom function of your browser?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Mark

You don't need to use alternate style sheets for different sizes if you
code you pages properly.  Use fluid widths, and pages will look good in
any reasonably sized font.

Of course, if the user sets his default font to 72 pt, not much of
anything will going to look good.

I have my font size set larger than normal because I have a high
resolution screen and I'm getting older.  It works well on most sites.

HTML doesn't allow you to determine how your page will look on my
machine.  It will only let you recommend.  That's the way it's designed
to work.

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Adrienne Boswell - 29 Jun 2009 03:04 GMT
>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> while at the same time maintaining the layout and proportions intended
> by the designer.

And those browsers do zoom in different ways.

Opera zooms everything.  
Chrome zooms text, but not images.
Firefox zooms text only, if that's selected (I like that).
Safari 3 zooms only text, Safari 4 zooms both/either.
K-Meleon zooms either and/or both.

> Designer-side kludges such as alternate stylesheets for different font
> sizes are a throwback to the days when browser support for zoom was
> restricted (I can remember when only Opera did it properly) and IE, in
> particular, didn't do it very well at all. But that's no longer the
> case; all the major browsers have fully supported zoom for some time
> now.

> And zoom also allows the end user to blow up or shrink text set
> in pixel or point sizes rather than ems, thus negating one of the
> biggest arguments against using fixed sizes for fonts.

IE8 still does not let the user up the font size when
it's expressed in pixels.  I'm talking about View->Font-Size not View->
Zoom, which increases everything.

> That's not to
> say that using ems still isn't worth doing in some cases, but in
> reality you'll usually get better cross-browser consistency, without
> compromising the end user's ability to make the font bigger or smaller
> if they want to, by using pixels.

Test case:
[http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info/usenet/pixelem.html]

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Mark Goodge - 29 Jun 2009 08:30 GMT
>>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Opera zooms everything.  
>Chrome zooms text, but not images.

No, Chrome zooms everything. At least, my copy does.

>Firefox zooms text only, if that's selected (I like that).

It's good to have that option, yes.

>Safari 3 zooms only text, Safari 4 zooms both/either.
>K-Meleon zooms either and/or both.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>it's expressed in pixels.  I'm talking about View->Font-Size not View->
>Zoom, which increases everything.

Ah, in that case we're talking at cross purposes. I'm specifically
talking about zoom. Increasing just the text size, without increasing
the layout and image size, is something of a suboptimal solution
anyway as it tends to break the layout of anything in columns or boxes
(whether expressed in divs or tables), so that's not really the best
way of making pages larger in most cases.

Mark
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Ben C - 29 Jun 2009 08:48 GMT
[...]
> Ah, in that case we're talking at cross purposes. I'm specifically
> talking about zoom. Increasing just the text size, without increasing
> the layout and image size, is something of a suboptimal solution
> anyway as it tends to break the layout of anything in columns or boxes
> (whether expressed in divs or tables), so that's not really the best
> way of making pages larger in most cases.

Zoom doesn't usually increase widths to wider than the viewport, because
then you would get horizontal scrolling, which everyone hates. So it can
still break layouts (although, yes, less likely to than "text zoom",
which is why it was invented).
Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 16:20 GMT
> And those browsers do zoom in different ways.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Safari 3 zooms only text, Safari 4 zooms both/either.
> K-Meleon zooms either and/or both.

The most used browsers (Firefox, IE, Opera) zoom everything with Ctrl+
and Ctrl-.
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Jerry Stuckle - 28 Jun 2009 12:52 GMT
>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>  
> Why don't you use the zoom function of your browser?

Because I don't need to zoom images.  And I don't want to have to zoom
every page just because some idiot doesn't know how to properly code a site.

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Mark Goodge - 28 Jun 2009 14:11 GMT
>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>  
>> Why don't you use the zoom function of your browser?
>
>Because I don't need to zoom images.  And I don't want to have to zoom
>every page just because some idiot doesn't know how to properly code a site.

You don't have to "zoom every page". You just set the zoom setting at
something which is comfortable for you.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 28 Jun 2009 14:18 GMT
>>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>>  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark

Which I have - I have the text size zoomed to my liking.

And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.

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Mark Goodge - 28 Jun 2009 14:56 GMT
>>>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>>>  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Which I have - I have the text size zoomed to my liking.

Then everything's working fine for you, and you've got no problems.

>And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.

Images look fine when zoomed, at least unless you make them
excessively large. All that zooming is doing is changing the
resolution within the browser window, so that things appear either
bigger or smaller on the screen. I've just tested it with both Chrome
and Firefox, and the results are perfectly acceptable up to well over
200% zoom.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 28 Jun 2009 23:21 GMT
>>>>>> I can see the pictures just fine - but the text is too small.
>>>>>  
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Mark

Not at all.  A 100x100 image looks terrible at 120x120 on my LCD screen.
     The browser can't change the resolution within the browser window
- that is fixed by the hardware.

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Mark Goodge - 29 Jun 2009 08:31 GMT
>>> And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>      The browser can't change the resolution within the browser window
>- that is fixed by the hardware.

Well, I'm looking at it on an LCD screen and it's fine. Sure, you can
see, if you look carefully, that it's been zoomed, but the effect is
barely noticable. I think you're exaggerating the difficulties it
causes you in order to bolster your argument.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 29 Jun 2009 11:28 GMT
>>>> And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.
>>> Images look fine when zoomed, at least unless you make them
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Mark

Not to me it isn't "barely noticeable".

Get over it - you CAN NOT CONTROL THE LOOK ON MY SCREEN!

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Mark Goodge - 29 Jun 2009 11:44 GMT
>>>>> And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.
>>>> Images look fine when zoomed, at least unless you make them
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Get over it - you CAN NOT CONTROL THE LOOK ON MY SCREEN!

No, but that's precisely the point. It's your screen that's the issue,
not the page, and there's nothing that I, as a web author, can do to
correct for the deficiencies in your eyesight or hardware.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 29 Jun 2009 12:26 GMT
>>>>>> And have you ever seen an image zoomed to 120% look good?  I haven't.
>>>>> Images look fine when zoomed, at least unless you make them
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Mark

Nope.   But you can create screens which look good in any reasonable
size and resolution.  That's what good web developers do.

The web is meant to be a fluid medium. If you want exact control of how
something looks, either create a pdf or go back to paper.

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Mark Goodge - 29 Jun 2009 13:32 GMT
>> No, but that's precisely the point. It's your screen that's the issue,
>> not the page, and there's nothing that I, as a web author, can do to
>> correct for the deficiencies in your eyesight or hardware.
>
>Nope.   But you can create screens which look good in any reasonable
>size and resolution.  That's what good web developers do.

Indeed. But there are limits to that. For example, there's absolutely
nothing that Alfred, for example, can do to make the images on his
site viewable in Lynx :-)

>The web is meant to be a fluid medium. If you want exact control of how
>something looks, either create a pdf or go back to paper.

And that's precisely why I don't bother trying to code for every
browser, or every user. I just create sites that have valid HTML and
CSS, and if the user wants to alter the way they appear then it's
their choice to do so.

Mark
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Jerry Stuckle - 29 Jun 2009 18:04 GMT
>>> No, but that's precisely the point. It's your screen that's the issue,
>>> not the page, and there's nothing that I, as a web author, can do to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> nothing that Alfred, for example, can do to make the images on his
> site viewable in Lynx :-)

Yes, there are limits.  However, a good web developer can code web pages
which look good in reasonable sizes.  I'm not talking about when the
user increases the font size to 72 point, for instance - but a few
points larger or smaller should still look good.

>> The web is meant to be a fluid medium. If you want exact control of how
>> something looks, either create a pdf or go back to paper.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Mark

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 04:20 GMT

> Because I don't need to zoom images.  And I don't want to have to zoom
> every page just because some idiot doesn't know how to properly code a site.

That's it Jerry. Welcome to my killfile.
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Jerry Stuckle - 29 Jun 2009 11:28 GMT
>  
>> Because I don't need to zoom images.  And I don't want to have to zoom
>> every page just because some idiot doesn't know how to properly code a site.
>
> That's it Jerry. Welcome to my killfile.

No problem.  Welcome to my idiot file.

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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 27 Jun 2009 02:54 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>> They obviously don't count the pixels, but a few pixel width
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what
> I want to avoid.

Why?

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Alfred Molon - 27 Jun 2009 09:12 GMT
> > What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what
> > I want to avoid.
>
> Why?

As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.
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Jerry Stuckle - 27 Jun 2009 11:53 GMT
>>> What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what
>>> I want to avoid.
>> Why?
>
> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.

On your computer, yes.  But not on my computer, you don't.  That's what
you don't understand.

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rf - 27 Jun 2009 12:45 GMT
>>> What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is
>>> what I want to avoid.
>>
>> Why?
>
> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.

And on *my* browser *I* decide how big my text is. If your site breaks with
*my* choice of font size then it is your problem, not mine.

And as an artist you should know exactly what your medium is. And web is not
paper.
Alfred Molon - 28 Jun 2009 05:30 GMT
> And on *my* browser *I* decide how big my text is. If your site breaks with
> *my* choice of font size then it is your problem, not mine.

Once again: it makes no sense to have huge text with tiny thumbnails. If
the text font must be bigger, also the images must be be bigger. But the
images are fixed size. So, if you want to have larger text, use the zoom
function of your browser - it's as simple as that.
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crankypuss - 28 Jun 2009 09:16 GMT
>> And on *my* browser *I* decide how big my text is. If your site breaks with
>> *my* choice of font size then it is your problem, not mine.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>images are fixed size. So, if you want to have larger text, use the zoom
>function of your browser - it's as simple as that.

It's your business, but I think that when you put the onus on the
customer you invite him to leave.

You know, Firefox has a "zoom text only" function.

Have you considered specifying the size of both the images and the
fonts in em-units?  I think if you did that, the only way the user
could screw up your display is to intentionally zoom the text only; I
think that if he just has his text size set large it would cause the
images to expand to match proportionally.  But I haven't tested that
approach recently enough to remember having tested it.  It's something
to check into if you're interested.

You might want to keep in mind that AWW is a mixed bag.  A few of us
(me, apparently you, a few others) are only concerned with our own
websites so we have some freedoms that the folks who build sites for
others as a living can't allow themselves.  We can use scripts to
generate table-based layout on-the-fly without worrying that somebody
else will have to figure out our code, or we can even (if we enjoy the
pain) maintain deeply nested hardcoded tables by hand.  If we were
doing sites for customers and we did that though, one of our
colleagues would probably put out the hue and cry for our lynching.
We have different sets of rules to work by, basically.  But we're all
pretty much stuck with the same limitations, even though we may choose
different ways of working around them.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 14:36 GMT

> Have you considered specifying the size of both the images and the
> fonts in em-units?  I think if you did that, the only way the user
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> approach recently enough to remember having tested it.  It's something
> to check into if you're interested.

Well, the images are stored in a fixed size on the servers. Not sure
what can be done here to make the image size scale with the text size. I
do hwowver suspect that the people who play around with the font size of
their browser are a small minority of technical savvy people. The
average Internet user most likely does not know how modify the font size
of web pages.

Regarding the fixed width of the web pages, the simplest thing to do if
the width is too small is to use the browser zoom function.
People who are visually challenged probably will already be familiar
with this function or with other screen zoom functions on their
computer.

If the script which generates the site pages knew what width the browser
window is, it might automatically generate the page layout to match the
window width.

It should be possible to add some javascript to the site pages which
measures the window width and reports it back to the scripts on the
server, so that the scripts can adjust the page shown to the window
width. If the user chooses to disable Javascript, the site would default
to the standard layout.

Should be easily doable - is there perhaps some code available
somewhere?
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jeff - 29 Jun 2009 17:13 GMT
>  
>> Have you considered specifying the size of both the images and the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> average Internet user most likely does not know how modify the font size
> of web pages.

  I've done a good deal of work with images and variable size layouts.

  What I typically do is save an image in various sizes (server)
generated. Now, it's possible to rewrite the image size using either
client side code (javascript) or server side. I've done both.

  My latest incarnation just has a rolldown that lets the user choose
the size. In general, if the thumb is good size to begin with, as yours
are, it seem unneeded to do even that.

  This group has a disproportionate share of low vision members. They
will always advocate for larger adjustable sizes.

  I don't see any real problems with your site. My point of
disagreement is that table based layouts are easier to maintain and
you've mentioned that yours is maintained by server scripts, so I can't
see you winning that argument as I've done this every conceivable way.

  Jeff

> Regarding the fixed width of the web pages, the simplest thing to do if
> the width is too small is to use the browser zoom function.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Should be easily doable - is there perhaps some code available
> somewhere?
Adrienne Boswell - 29 Jun 2009 19:12 GMT
> I
>> do hwowver suspect that the people who play around with the font size
>> of their browser are a small minority of technical savvy people. The
>> average Internet user most likely does not know how modify the font
>> size of web pages.

The largest demographic is the Baby Boomers, and the largest of that
group was born in 1957 - and they are now 52.  These people don't have
the same eye sight they had when they were young, but they have something
now they didn't have when they were young - the Internet and money.  They
are in the work force.  These people have heard of Google, and they have
figured out how to use a search engine for find out how to change
anything they want.

So I would not say that it's a small minority of technical savvy people.

I will say, however, to anyone who is in the print business, specifically
the people who are responsible for printing the directions on the back of
food boxes to please up the font size.  I'm 52 and sometimes I can't tell
if it's 1/4 or 1/3.  And there is no ctrl+ on the back of a box of Rice-
a-Roni.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 19:53 GMT
> My point of
> disagreement is that table based layouts are easier to maintain and
> you've mentioned that yours is maintained by server scripts, so I can't
> see you winning that argument as I've done this every conceivable way.

The points I made were that I have no problem maintaining my table-based
site, and then I mentioned this friend of mine who spent considerable
effort to create a site with CSS for positioning a few years ago.

It is possible that by now browsers have advanced and that it is now
easier to achieve a consistent look when using CSS for positioning.
Can't comment on this - would have to try this out.
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Scott Bryce - 29 Jun 2009 17:26 GMT
> I do hwowver suspect that the people who play around with the font
> size of their browser are a small minority of technical savvy people.
> The average Internet user most likely does not know how modify the
> font size of web pages.

I suspect that a larger minority of them are older users whose eyesight
is not as good as it used to be. Zooming font sizes is very easy in IE.
I suspect that more people know how to do it than you would imagine.

> If the script which generates the site pages knew what width the
> browser window is, it might automatically generate the page layout to
> match the window width.

You have got to be kidding, right? If what you want to do is generate a
page that fits the full width of the viewport than either don't specify
a width, or specify the width at 100%. It will work every time. What
could be simpler? There is no need to resort to scripting hacks.

> Should be easily doable - is there perhaps some code available
> somewhere?

If you use no code whatsoever, your page will default to the full width
of the viewport.
Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 20:11 GMT
> You have got to be kidding, right? If what you want to do is generate a
> page that fits the full width of the viewport than either don't specify
> a width, or specify the width at 100%. It will work every time. What
> could be simpler? There is no need to resort to scripting hacks.

Have a look at the pages of my site and perhaps you will understand why
the scripts need to know how wide the browser window is. Hint: there is
a variable number of images in each row.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 29 Jun 2009 20:35 GMT
> Scott Bryce says...
>> You have got to be kidding, right? If what you want to do is generate
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> why the scripts need to know how wide the browser window is. Hint:
> there is a variable number of images in each row.

Not in my browsers, there isn't.
Firefox, Opera; Ubuntu 8.04; JavaScript on or off.

For example, this page:
http://www.molon.de/galleries/Italy/Milan/Station/
has three images in the first row, and four in the next two rows. It
doesn't matter if the browser is 800 pixels wide, or 1650 pixels wide.

What page has a variable number of images per row?  All the ones I've
looked at are coded to 800px. Above that, it's 800px centered; below,
there is a horizontal scrollbar.

The only JavaScript I see is the google ads, and I don't see those
because the domain is in my HOSTS file.

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Alfred Molon - 30 Jun 2009 01:26 GMT
> > Scott Bryce says...
> >> You have got to be kidding, right? If what you want to do is generate
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> What page has a variable number of images per row?

You'll find the answer in what you just wrote:

"...has three images in the first row, and four in the next two rows..."

There is a different number of images per row.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 30 Jun 2009 02:01 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>> Scott Bryce says...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>> Have a look at the pages of my site and perhaps you will understand
>>> why the scripts need to know how wide the browser window is.

The scripts do not need to know how wide the browser window is; the
pages are all hard-coded at 800 pixels wide.

>>> Hint: there is a variable number of images in each row.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> There is a different number of images per row.

Y'know, after I typed my post, I just knew you were going to reply with
that very statement. However, it does not fit the discussion. Read above
what Scott wrote. "..generate a page that fits the *full width* of the
viewport then either don't specify a width, or specify the width at
100%."

Which means the page floats with "varying number of images based on
browser window width."

You're grasping at straws, Alfred. You have a fixed site.

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Scott Bryce - 30 Jun 2009 05:08 GMT
> Y'know, after I typed my post, I just knew you were going to reply
> with that very statement. However, it does not fit the discussion.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You're grasping at straws, Alfred. You have a fixed site.

I finally looked at the page in question. This may not be as simple as
you are making it out to be. Since the images are different heights,
there is no guarantee that a fluid design will always have the rows of
images starting at the left side of the screen. If one row has a tall
image, the next row may get "stuck" against that tall image rather than
wrap all the way to the left margin.

If a page is made up of blocks (divs, images, etc) of varying heights,
fluid design becomes difficult, if even possible, to achieve, if the
goal is to have as many blocks as will fit across the screen in each row.
Adrienne Boswell - 30 Jun 2009 07:37 GMT
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Scott Bryce
<sbryce@scottbryce.com> writing in news:h2c33f$j4e$1
@news.motzarella.org:

>> Y'know, after I typed my post, I just knew you were going to reply
>> with that very statement. However, it does not fit the discussion.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> fluid design becomes difficult, if even possible, to achieve, if the
> goal is to have as many blocks as will fit across the screen in each row.

If you're doing it server side, and you can determine the size of the
largest image, then you can make container divs of that size and align
the images in them.  You could also make all the thumbnails the same
size.

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rf - 30 Jun 2009 07:44 GMT
> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Scott Bryce
> <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writing in news:h2c33f$j4e$1
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> the images in them.  You could also make all the thumbnails the same
> size.

Except that there is text associated with the images. One does not know how
big the text is going to be, even if its size is specified in pixels for the
benefit of IE.

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Adrienne Boswell - 30 Jun 2009 08:41 GMT
>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Scott Bryce
>> <sbryce@scottbryce.com> writing in news:h2c33f$j4e$1
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> know how big the text is going to be, even if its size is specified in
> pixels for the benefit of IE.

Aye, but you can keep the amount of text small, no more than x
characters, especially if it's a caption.

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Scott Bryce - 30 Jun 2009 15:42 GMT
> If you're doing it server side, and you can determine the size of the
>  largest image, then you can make container divs of that size and
> align the images in them.

If there is substantial variation in the heights of the images, this
won't be practical. You will wind up with rows that are taller than they
need to be because you need to accommodate tall images in other rows.
Alfred Molon - 01 Jul 2009 12:00 GMT

> The scripts do not need to know how wide the browser window is; the
> pages are all hard-coded at 800 pixels wide.

Because the scripts do not know how wide the browser window is. If they
did, they could serve pages which match the browser window width, i.e.
if the scripts knew that the browser window width is 1800 pixel, they
would place 10 or 11 thumbnails in a row instead of 3 or 4.

> Y'know, after I typed my post, I just knew you were going to reply with
> that very statement. However, it does not fit the discussion. Read above
> what Scott wrote. "..generate a page that fits the *full width* of the
> viewport then either don't specify a width, or specify the width at
> 100%."

You can have a page which fits the full width of the browser window, but
that will for instance mean that the page contains a 600 pixel wide
image on a 1920 pixel wide browser window.

Or how to fill a 1600 pixel wide window with three 100 pixel wide
thumbnails?

> Which means the page floats with "varying number of images based on
> browser window width."
>
> You're grasping at straws, Alfred. You have a fixed site.

Not sure what you mean here. What are you talking about?
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 01 Jul 2009 12:06 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>> You're grasping at straws, Alfred. You have a fixed site.
>
> Not sure what you mean here. What are you talking about?

I give up.

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Jerry Stuckle - 28 Jun 2009 12:58 GMT
>> And on *my* browser *I* decide how big my text is. If your site breaks with
>> *my* choice of font size then it is your problem, not mine.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> images are fixed size. So, if you want to have larger text, use the zoom
> function of your browser - it's as simple as that.

Maybe not to you it doesn't.  But then, are you trying to please
yourself?  Or your customers?

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William Gill - 28 Jun 2009 16:05 GMT
> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.

I once worked with an "artist' who saw nothing wrong with having
javaScript resize the open browser window to "maintain artistic
integrity."  I'm not sure the "slap in the face" to new visitors was the
integrity he wanted, but it is what he got.  The steady traffic decline
suggested, that not enough visitors are properly educated in "art."
Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 28 Jun 2009 18:38 GMT
>> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.
>
> I once worked with an "artist' who saw nothing wrong with having
> javaScript resize the open browser window to "maintain artistic
> integrity."

Of all the things clueless authors do, that one absolutely irritates me
the most. It is even more annoying to then find a 960px column stuck to
the left side of my new 22-inch window.

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William Gill - 28 Jun 2009 19:31 GMT
>>> As an artist, I decide how my site looks like.
>> I once worked with an "artist' who saw nothing wrong with having
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the most. It is even more annoying to then find a 960px column stuck to
> the left side of my new 22-inch window.

You obviously don't appreciate art! <G>
Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 04:42 GMT
> Of all the things clueless authors do, that one absolutely irritates me
> the most. It is even more annoying to then find a 960px column stuck to
> the left side of my new 22-inch window.

Here is a site with a fixed window width:
http://www.dpreview.com/

PR8, loads of traffic (Alexa rank 1547)

People care about content, not about HTML code.
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Chris F.A. Johnson - 29 Jun 2009 06:31 GMT
>> Of all the things clueless authors do, that one absolutely irritates me
>> the most. It is even more annoying to then find a 960px column stuck to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> People care about content, not about HTML code.

  But surely the web developers care should about the code? If they
  did, perhaps the menu would be legible:
  <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/dpreview.jpg>,

  Making the width flexible would have solved the problem.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 14:54 GMT
>    But surely the web developers care should about the code? If they
>    did, perhaps the menu would be legible:
>    <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/testing/dpreview.jpg>,
>
>    Making the width flexible would have solved the problem.

No idea how you managed to get that. Probably some browser settings no
average user would ever think of.
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rf - 29 Jun 2009 15:24 GMT
>>    But surely the web developers care should about the code? If they
>>    did, perhaps the menu would be legible:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No idea how you managed to get that. Probably some browser settings no
> average user would ever think of.

What? You must be bloody kidding. What a stupid, unifomed, unresearchec
comment.

A simple text zoom. One Ctrl spin of a mouse wheel destroys that site. Text
zoom, which you seem to be head in the sand about, not all zoom.

The author of that site has obvoiusly never ever tested the site properly. I
feel sad for the authors client, who will probably never know that the
author is driving the clients potentional customers far far away.

Then again this is the usual stuff produced by people from the graphic arts
(paper) side of design who have absolutely no idea about how the web works.
Is that you?

Then again (2) I see everybody else has abandoned you in this thread anyway,
ignoring you,  as I do from now on. Thankfully I don't have to interact with
*your* site. And yes, I have looked at it. Stupidly small text for
absolutely no reason. Pixels at that which will absolutely guarntee that it
will *not* look the same in all browsers.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 16:20 GMT
> A simple text zoom. One Ctrl spin of a mouse wheel destroys that site. Text
> zoom, which you seem to be head in the sand about, not all zoom.

Tell my wife to do a text zoom and she will not understand what you
mean. As probably no average Internet user will.

> The author of that site has obvoiusly never ever tested the site properly. I
> feel sad for the authors client, who will probably never know that the
> author is driving the clients potentional customers far far away.

Nonsense. That is a site with Alexa rank 1547, with loads of traffic and
an excellent user interface. They got that huge amount of traffic also
because their user interface is very good.

> Then again this is the usual stuff produced by people from the graphic arts
> (paper) side of design who have absolutely no idea about how the web works.
> Is that you?

No.

> Then again (2) I see everybody else has abandoned you in this thread anyway,
> ignoring you,  as I do from now on.

I couldn't care less.

> Thankfully I don't have to interact with
> *your* site. And yes, I have looked at it. Stupidly small text for
> absolutely no reason. Pixels at that which will absolutely guarntee that it
> will *not* look the same in all browsers.

The feedback I usually get from real users of my site is that the user
interface is very good. And a couple of years ago an Australian
professional photographer asked if he could puchase the software behind
the site. He liked the way the site is designed.
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Ed Mullen - 29 Jun 2009 19:51 GMT
>>    But surely the web developers care should about the code? If they
>>    did, perhaps the menu would be legible:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No idea how you managed to get that. Probably some browser settings no
> average user would ever think of.

As was said, it's text zoom.  I see a similar thing because my browser
has minimum font size set to 14.

It's a horribly designed page ...

http://edmullen.net/temp/cap99.jpg

Notice where my mouse pointer is?  If you slide off the menu it stays on
screen until you cross another link.  Clicking on a blank area of the
page won't get rid of it.  Just dumb.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 20:24 GMT
> As was said, it's text zoom.  I see a similar thing because my browser
> has minimum font size set to 14.
>
> It's a horribly designed page ...

Their user interface is excellent. That's one of the reasons why
dpreview.com became the Nr.1 site on digital photography and was bought
by Amazon a couple of years ago.

> http://edmullen.net/temp/cap99.jpg
>
> Notice where my mouse pointer is?  If you slide off the menu it stays on
> screen until you cross another link.  Clicking on a blank area of the
> page won't get rid of it.  Just dumb.

Instead of using a text only zoom, set your browser to a higher global
zoom level. That way you'll avoid all those weird problems.

Perhaps, on a more general level, for the future stop using text only
zooms and use only global zooms.
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Ed Mullen - 30 Jun 2009 20:44 GMT
>> As was said, it's text zoom.  I see a similar thing because my browser
>> has minimum font size set to 14.
>>
>> It's a horribly designed page ...
>
> Their user interface is excellent.

Not with the menu problem I described it isn't.

> That's one of the reasons why
> dpreview.com became the Nr.1 site on digital photography and was bought
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Instead of using a text only zoom, set your browser to a higher global
> zoom level. That way you'll avoid all those weird problems.

What?  Text size has nothing to do with the menu problem I described.

> Perhaps, on a more general level, for the future stop using text only
> zooms and use only global zooms.

Ok.  Here you are.  I go to your site.  In SeaMonkey (no minimum font
size set) I use text zoom to be able to read your impossibly small type.
 All is well.  Same result with my standard minimum font size of 14.

In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
consider that a good user experience.

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Alfred Molon - 01 Jul 2009 12:05 GMT
> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
> consider that a good user experience.

I guess you have this problem not just with my site, but with all sites
which use fonts too small for your eyes. Perhaps buy a pair of glasses
(pls don't take this personally) or even better a much larger monitor.
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William Gill - 01 Jul 2009 16:20 GMT
>> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
>> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> which use fonts too small for your eyes. Perhaps buy a pair of glasses
> (pls don't take this personally) or even better a much larger monitor.

Please don't take THIS personally, but designers, artists, or whatever,
who assume the whole world should operate physically, mentally, and in
every way just like them, and use that as a baseline for "normal" are
either self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless.

You may be content designing and creating solely for yourself, but some
of us recognize that the work we create is intended for others, even
those not fortunate enough to have the fine eyes, great technology, and
superior appreciation of art that we ourself may possess.
Alfred Molon - 02 Jul 2009 10:32 GMT
> self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless

If you have to resort to insults or name calling, this tells something
about you. You should learn to discuss in a civilised manner.
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Jerry Stuckle - 02 Jul 2009 11:06 GMT
>> self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless
>  
> If you have to resort to insults or name calling, this tells something
> about you. You should learn to discuss in a civilised manner.

It's impossible to discuss something in a civilized manner with someone
who insists he's right and the rest of the world is wrong.  That person
is z self centered egotist; painfully uneducated or hopelessly clueless.

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crankypuss - 02 Jul 2009 11:46 GMT
>>> self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless
>>  
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>who insists he's right and the rest of the world is wrong.  That person
>is z self centered egotist; painfully uneducated or hopelessly clueless.

Or perhaps that person is a Copernicus, Galileo, etc -- some people
actually are right while the rest of the world is wrong; even if it
turns out they aren't "self centered egotist; painfully uneducated or
hopelessly clueless" they can certainly be hopelessly frustrating to
attempt to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging and taking sides here, I haven't
been following closely enough to even guess about anything except that
Alfred is in the minority and people are getting frustrated.  And
people with widely varying goals do tend to argue a lot (witness the
Crusades).

I have observed that there seem to be a lot of CSS-based sites that
are nearly unusable because of text overlapping images etc, but
presumably that kind of thing is an implementation trap awaiting the
unwary CSS-newb.  I do feel that html is lacking a few basics that
would make it much more useful, like a pre-defined variable containing
the window width and the ability to use that variable in calculations.
It's basically a fairly minimalized language or people wouldn't still
be using the SSI (server-side include) hack... or maybe they aren't
using it anymore for all I know, I haven't used it for years.

Attempting to build anything (especially something allowing as many
choices as a website) for a customer, and keeping the customer happy
enough to pay the bill without complaining, while doing it with warped
lumber and bent nails, that's a frustrating business.  Maintaining
your integrity as a craftsman while keeping the rent paid is not an
easy thing.  Professionals tend to think of ourselves as somehow
better, more credentialed, wiser than non-professionals -- but at the
same time some of us dream of being able to do things "right" instead
of just well enough to keep the money flowing in the desired
direction.

The winning side doesn't always have to turn out to have been one of
the sides an argument started with, sometimes people can learn and
group together and improve things, sometimes people can recognize that
they're too different to agree so they agree not to, etc.

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William Gill - 02 Jul 2009 14:21 GMT
>> self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless
>  
> If you have to resort to insults or name calling, this tells something
> about you. You should learn to discuss in a civilised manner.

Yes, and while Ed and many others are able to obtain eyeglasses to
properly view your site, there is no similar prosthesis for mental myopia.

Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the concept of web accessibility,
and not really suggesting that "If you can't see my site properly there
is something wrong with you, not my design."  After all that would be
insulting, and uncivilized.
Alfred Molon - 03 Jul 2009 03:49 GMT
> Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the concept of web accessibility

In fact the entire site is based on font size 13 or higher, to make it
easy for people to read it. That is a large font, larger than the font
on many sites. Font 10 is only used for small auxiliary texts, for which
there is not much screen space available and which are not so important.

Lots of other sites use a similar mix of font sizes. Here is one
example:

http://www.spiegel.de/

This is a major site: PR8, Alexa rank 147.

Again they use a large font for the main text and small fonts for
auxiliary texts which can be skipped because not so important.

Or would you claim that the designers of spiegel.de are "self centered
egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless" ?
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Chris F.A. Johnson - 03 Jul 2009 04:50 GMT
>> Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the concept of web accessibility
>
> In fact the entire site is based on font size 13 or higher, to make it
> easy for people to read it. That is a large font, larger than the font
> on many sites. Font 10 is only used for small auxiliary texts, for which
> there is not much screen space available and which are not so important.

  That's still too small for me to read. Why do you need anythibg
  other than 100%, with, perhaps, 85 percent for the fine print?

> Lots of other sites use a similar mix of font sizes. Here is one
> example:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Or would you claim that the designers of spiegel.de are "self centered
> egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless" ?

  Just clueless.

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Alfred Molon - 03 Jul 2009 18:08 GMT
>    That's still too small for me to read.

Verdana 13 is too small to read?
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Scott Bryce - 03 Jul 2009 19:08 GMT
> Verdana 13 is too small to read?

The point you are missing is that you have no control over the hardware
and software that is used to view your site. It may look fine to you on
your machine, but not on mine. So, yes, Verdana 13 may very well be too
small for some of your visitors.
reporter - 03 Jul 2009 22:13 GMT
This is a great thread.  Keep up the good work.
John Hosking - 03 Jul 2009 09:58 GMT
> In fact the entire site is based on font size 13 or higher, to make it
> easy for people to read it. That is a large font, larger than the font
> on many sites. Font 10 is only used for small auxiliary texts, for which
> there is not much screen space available and which are not so important.

Font size 13? Font 10? I thought the sizes for font only ran from 1 to 7
inclusive.

> Lots of other sites use a similar mix of font sizes. Here is one
> example:

Lots of countries depose bona fide heads of state (their own or others'),
but that doesn't make it *right*.

Lots of people drive too fast. Lots of people throw their trash out the car
window. Lots of people smoke tobacco. Etc. Choose your own analogous
example. Just because lots of X do Y doesn't mean that Y is a good thing
for you to do.

> http://www.spiegel.de/
>
> This is a major site: PR8, Alexa rank 147.

They've got loads of indexable content. It doesn't mean they present it
well.

> Again they use a large font for the main text and small fonts for
> auxiliary texts which can be skipped because not so important.
>
> Or would you claim that the designers of spiegel.de are "self centered
> egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless" ?

Either B or C. That page is way too long, uses 9px and 10px Verdana (backed
up with Arial), misuses and omits alt and title texts for images, and
requires my viewport to be at least 1018 px wide (even with their teeny
default font sizes). The page is also slow to react to cursor movements,
even with JS off. Poor example to suggest as a role model.

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In government and business, we suffer from the blind leading the blind.
In Web design, oddly enough, we suffer more from the opposite.

William Gill - 03 Jul 2009 18:29 GMT
>> Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the concept of web accessibility
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Or would you claim that the designers of spiegel.de are "self centered
> egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless" ?

I'm not really surprised that you entirely missed the point of my
response, but I was commenting more on the attitude not the specifics of
design.  Your position isn't offensive because you mixed font sizes, or
presented a design I didn't like. In fact I find your design quite
passable.  It's not what I may have chosen, but creative difference is
what makes "creative" stimulating.  It is offensive because it assumes
the baseline "Alfred Molon sees this properly using a Lenovo Thinkpad
X200 @ 1280x800 everyone else please make whatever adjustments
necessary, including the proper prescription eye ware, to attain this
level of perfection."

It never ceases to amaze me how often people can be so obtuse in regard
to others, while maintaining an ultra-thin skin in regard to themselves.
I apologize if you took my comments as personally "insulting or name
calling."  They are a repudiation of an attitude I find unacceptable,
not "Alfred Molon" per se.

Variations in font size lend appropriately to the overall presentation,
but perhaps if you lurked a while in alt.html or C.I.W.A.Html, you might
get some insight into the use of relative measurements such as em's or
percentages in lieu of px or pt.  That way when a visitor's defaults
require fonts larger than flyspecks they will have them, and you will
still have the relative variations your design demands.  Of course that
will mean you will have to stress test your design to insure it "breaks
down gracefully", but that isn't as much fun as the artistic aspects of
design.  You may chose to disregard this step if you like since those
having a poor experience now will still have a poor experience, and
nothing will be gained or lost.

As for citing examples that use similar fixed sizing because they
present a pleasant experience to "Alfred Molon using a Lenovo Thinkpad
X200 @ 1280x800", they may still provide an unpleasant one to many
others, so the citation is moot.
rf - 04 Jul 2009 01:14 GMT
> I'm not really surprised that you entirely missed the point of my
> response, but I was commenting more on the attitude not the specifics
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> whatever adjustments necessary, including the proper prescription eye
> ware, to attain this level of perfection."

Ah, welcome good sir to my quality shoe shop.

But first sir must pass this simple eyesight test. Failure to pass will mean
you may not enter my shop, and will remain barefoot.
William Gill - 04 Jul 2009 15:49 GMT
>> I'm not really surprised that you entirely missed the point of my
>> response, but I was commenting more on the attitude not the specifics
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> But first sir must pass this simple eyesight test. Failure to pass will mean
> you may not enter my shop, and will remain barefoot.

Just curious.  Is "pass" contingent on ability or inability to see well,
and does your shop have a zoom feature?
David Postill - 06 Jul 2009 16:19 GMT
| > Perhaps you are just unfamiliar with the concept of web accessibility
|
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
|
| http://www.spiegel.de/

<http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de>

151 Errors, 223 warning(s)

Enough said.
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crankypuss - 02 Jul 2009 11:20 GMT
>>> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
>>> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>every way just like them, and use that as a baseline for "normal" are
>either self centered egotists; painfully uneducated; or hopelessly clueless.

Perhaps just obstinately idealistic.  Obstinate idealism isn't
necessarily a bad thing unless you're trying to satisfy customers (and
then it might get in the way).

>You may be content designing and creating solely for yourself, but some
>of us recognize that the work we create is intended for others, even
>those not fortunate enough to have the fine eyes, great technology, and
>superior appreciation of art that we ourself may possess.

Hmmm.  Is his site terminally ugly, or just somewhat inflexible?  I
haven't looked at it, I don't recall seeing its url.

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Ed Mullen - 02 Jul 2009 20:46 GMT
>>>> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
>>>> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Hmmm.  Is his site terminally ugly, or just somewhat inflexible?  I
> haven't looked at it, I don't recall seeing its url.

It's in his sig:

http://www.molon.de/

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crankypuss - 03 Jul 2009 09:37 GMT
>>>>> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
>>>>> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>http://www.molon.de/

Thanks Ed.  I just looked briefly.  

I'm not a fan of dark backgrounds, and I am in favor of a common
menu-bar, but it isn't terminally ugly and I see no problems with the
layout.

It doesn't demand that I download the latest version of anything.
Seems at first glance like a nice solid site.  I'm not sure what all
the fuss is about.

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Ed Mullen - 01 Jul 2009 17:44 GMT
>> In IE8 I use the page zoom feature to achieve the larger (readable)
>> text.  I now have to scroll horizontally to see the page.  I don't
>> consider that a good user experience.
>  
> I guess you have this problem not just with my site, but with all sites
> which use fonts too small for your eyes.

Yes, that's the problem with page zoom vs. text zoom!

> Perhaps buy a pair of glasses
> (pls don't take this personally) or even better a much larger monitor.

I wear prescription glasses, I have a 17" LCD panel running at 1280 x
1024.  If I got a 19" or larger display I'd likely run it at even higher
resolution so, no, that's not a useful suggestion.

Just out of curiosity what screen size, resolution, etc. do you do your
site design at?

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reporter - 02 Jul 2009 03:06 GMT
Cool.  A major one!!!

Hadn't seen a knockdown dragout like this in a while.

Keep up the good work.
Alfred Molon - 02 Jul 2009 10:19 GMT
> Just out of curiosity what screen size, resolution, etc. do you do your
> site design at?

For portability reasons I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad X200. 1280x800 at
12". I do have another computer with a 22" screen, but I use more the
notebook because it is so portable.
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 29 Jun 2009 15:01 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>> [restore snipped: "having javaScript resize the open browser window"]
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Here is a site with a fixed window width:
> http://www.dpreview.com/

You missed the point, possibly intended?  I don't care if you want to
code a fixed-width site, although a floating site makes more sense.

The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to a
ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow column
stuck to the left side.

> PR8, loads of traffic (Alexa rank 1547)

Still sucks. And if for some reason, I did have a 22-inch window, it is
comically stuck on the left third of the window.

> People care about content, not about HTML code.

Of course; that is a given. They do, however, also care about the design
of the site: whether it is accessible or not, whether they need to
scroll horizontally or not, whether it works for people with limited
vision, whether it opens new windows with broken Back buttons, and so
forth.

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rf - 29 Jun 2009 15:35 GMT
> The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to a
> ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow column
> stuck to the left side.

You allow scripts to fiddle with your browsers window size? Why?
Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 29 Jun 2009 15:41 GMT
>> The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to a
>> ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow column
>> stuck to the left side.
>
> You allow scripts to fiddle with your browsers window size? Why?

How else would I know it was going on, so to be able to chastise the
authors about their absurd choices?   :-)

(Answer:  only in one browser...)

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rf - 29 Jun 2009 15:48 GMT
>>> The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to
>>> a ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> How else would I know it was going on, so to be able to chastise the
> authors about their absurd choices?   :-)

Hah...

> (Answer:  only in one browser...)

... of course.

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Alfred Molon - 29 Jun 2009 16:08 GMT
 
> The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to a
> ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow column
> stuck to the left side.

Which site uses Javascript to maximise the browser window and then shows
only a narrow column?
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty - 29 Jun 2009 16:25 GMT
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>> The point was using JavaScript to *maximize* my browser window - to a
>> ridiculous 22 inches in my case - and _then_ display a narrow column
>> stuck to the left side.
>
> Which site uses Javascript to maximise the browser window

This alone is 'grounds for divorce.'

> and then shows only a narrow column?

..which would be absurdity number two.  At this moment, I can't give you
a specific example, as I certainly do not bookmark such sites.

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rf - 27 Jun 2009 03:08 GMT
>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>>> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what
> I want to avoid.

You will not be able to. Consider a Mac. There is a very fundamental
difference between a Mac and a Windows system. Windows uses 96 DPI for its
"resolution". Macs use 72. This will *guarantee* your page will look
different.

Even on a Windows platform things will be diferent. Download Safari. It uses
different fonts, different buttons, different everything. Your page *will*
look different.
jeff - 27 Jun 2009 03:26 GMT
>>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>>>> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "resolution". Macs use 72. This will *guarantee* your page will look
> different.

Which is why you don't use points.

> Even on a Windows platform things will be diferent. Download Safari. It uses
> different fonts, different buttons, different everything. Your page *will*
> look different.

  I've always thought: better.
\
 jeff
Alfred Molon - 27 Jun 2009 09:12 GMT
> >>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
> >>>> Can you imagine a visitor saying, "Aha! In browser A, Alfred's
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> different fonts, different buttons, different everything. Your page *will*
> look different.

But these differences will be minor, otherwise there would be some
serious standardisation issue among browsers.
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William Gill - 28 Jun 2009 15:57 GMT
> What I mean is that the look of the site is different - which is what I
> want to avoid.

Then might I suggest you work exclusively in print media.  That way your
layout will be seen exactly the same by all (even if some of us have to
us a magnifying glass to read it)   This medium, what with allowing
users to select OS, browser, monitor resolution, color depth, font size,
and even the relative size of an open window, shouldn't depend on pixel
alignment.  Notice I said shouldn't not can't because there are ways to
force feed your visitors (pdf's being one way), but I suspect they won't
like it.
jeff - 26 Jun 2009 17:31 GMT
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
>>>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty says...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> is 24 pixels from the left margin; in browser B, it is 27 pixels! Shame
> on Alfred!" No, I can't imagine that.

  There are certain design rules, I've mentioned some of these before.
Vertical and left margins can be critical to a design. Things that
should line up, really have to if you are selling design as part of your
web design service.

  It is not hard, in fact much easier in straight CSS to get these down
to the exact pixel in all common browsers (without convolutions). If you
can't you don't know your chops. Other negative spacing is much less
critical as is font sizing, but if you have columns that start at
different heights, or you have uneven left margins, or left margins that
don't line up with other details then that is a lack of attention to
detail that cuts you out of first tier design work. A line that breaks
3px is very noticeable.

  Jeff

>> But I have not tried to use CSS for positioning, so it's not my work
>> which is incomplete.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You are saying "I have only ever eaten vanilla ice cream. I hate
> chocolate ice cream."
Alfred Molon - 27 Jun 2009 02:23 GMT
>    There are certain design rules, I've mentioned some of these before.
> Vertical and left margins can be critical to a design. Things that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>    It is not hard, in fact much easier in straight CSS to get these down
> to the exact pixel in all common browsers (without convolutions).

At least with a table, things are always perfectly aligned. Can you
ensure that as well with CSS for positioning, in all browsers?
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Jerry Stuckle - 27 Jun 2009 02:25 GMT
>>    There are certain design rules, I've mentioned some of these before.
>> Vertical and left margins can be critical to a design. Things that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> At least with a table, things are always perfectly aligned. Can you
> ensure that as well with CSS for positioning, in all browsers?

Yes.

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Scott Bryce - 25 Jun 2009 14:12 GMT
> My site is based on tables and it's not a problem maintaining it. But
> I heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find
> tweaks to make the site look the same in all browsers.

The stories are probably several years old. Standardization across
browsers is much better than it used to be. I was slow to switch to CSS
layout for this reason, but now I would not go back.

> CSS for layout is a maintenance nightmare, because browser versions
> keep on changing and new browsers hit the scene.

Table layouts are a nightmare to maintain because content in the HTML
file is not linear, and you have to keep track of a lot of deeply nested
tables.

With CSS layouts, you will have nested divs, but it is not nearly as
complex as the nested tables you have with table layout.
Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 02:24 GMT
> Table layouts are a nightmare to maintain because content in the HTML
> file is not linear, and you have to keep track of a lot of deeply nested
> tables.

Very easy to maintain my site. Tables are just perfect.
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Ed Mullen - 26 Jun 2009 02:27 GMT
>> Table layouts are a nightmare to maintain because content in the HTML
>> file is not linear, and you have to keep track of a lot of deeply nested
>> tables.
>
> Very easy to maintain my site. Tables are just perfect.

Not hardly "perfect."  Lots of issues involved in using tables for
layout.  Still, if it works for you? And you test it in multiple
browsers?  And it still works at various levels of text-zoom?  Ok.

But, generally, you'll get little support for that approach.  It is
passe' and fraught with problems and compatibility issues.  And soon, I
suspect, most browsers will break the design.

Just a thought.

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jeff - 26 Jun 2009 09:40 GMT
>>> Table layouts are a nightmare to maintain because content in the HTML
>>> file is not linear, and you have to keep track of a lot of deeply nested
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> passe' and fraught with problems and compatibility issues.  And soon, I
> suspect, most browsers will break the design.

  Tables have been around since NS2, I actually remember someone
viewing  an early table based layout that saw it as broken because they
had NS1.

  With said, I don't think that table behavior is apt to change.
It is deeply embedded in browser functionality.

Nested table layouts are not easy to maintain, consider that Alfred's
site is maintained by a script. A table based layout is hard to break
though. Rows are alway rows, no matter what.

 Table less is where we are strongly heading. The last bit to do  this
is inline-block. Safari 2 and IE6 have some adjustments to do that, when
they are dead, there will be little reason to use tables beyond forms
and tabular data.

  With all  that said, I see some table less layouts that are as bad
and convoluted as table based.

  Get a 3 equal column design that works for you (not trivial). Learn
floats and the ignored but more flexible inline-block. Designing
websites will become much much easier. And use a standards mode doctype.

  Jeff

> Just a thought.
Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 13:05 GMT
> And it still works at various levels of text-zoom?

Text-zoom doesn't make sense on a site like mine, unless both the text
and the thumbnails are zoomed.

But for instance if you do Ctrl-+ or Ctrl-- with Firefox you can nicely
zoom the entire site, in case your vision is poor or the pixels of your
monitor are very small.
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jeff - 25 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT
>>> (And makes everyone happy except
>> the person who has to maintain the site.
>
> My site is based on tables and it's not a problem maintaining it.

That's because you know it well, most people would look at this single
cell amongst many on your home page and not have the same impression:

<td class="tdpicinfotable bori">
<table style="width: 129px; padding: 2px 8px 0px 8px; margin-left: auto;
margin-right: auto;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tr>
<td style="padding-top: 3px; padding-bottom: 5px;">
<a style="font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold;"
href="galleries/Iran/Tehran/">Tehran</a><br>
<font style="font:10px Geneva, Verdana, Arial; color:#A0A0A0;">75 photos
of Tehran, the capital and largest city of Iran <br></font>
</td>
</table>
</td>

  In fact if you want to add or change a pic, you have to recalculate
all the widths in that row.

But I
> heard stories that if you use CSS for layout you have to find tweaks to
> make the site look the same in all browsers. CSS for layout is a
> maintenance nightmare, because browser versions keep on changing and new
> browsers hit the scene.

 The strong trend is not for more quirks, but for greater standards
compliance with each version. The not so secret is to code to standards
compliance, not running in quirks mode as you have now. It wasn't always
like that, but it pretty much has been been with the death of NS4 and IE5.

  Jeff
Alfred Molon - 26 Jun 2009 02:29 GMT
> <td class="tdpicinfotable bori">
> <table style="width: 129px; padding: 2px 8px 0px 8px; margin-left: auto;
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>    In fact if you want to add or change a pic, you have to recalculate
> all the widths in that row.

That is done by a script automatically. The table layout depends on the
width of each thumbnail - it's not a fixed width table.

But thiking about it, I could use CSS to define som styles to simplify a
bit the above code.
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Jamie - 25 Jun 2009 20:40 GMT
>> > (And makes everyone happy except
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>maintenance nightmare, because browser versions keep on changing and new
>browsers hit the scene.

They're both nightmares. :-)

CSS kind of sucks if you have a sidebar. On the other hand, nested tables
can really ruin you day if you're trying to find some problem. (especially
if the tables are spread across various include templates)

I use both, but try to avoid tables (with a grain of salt..)

I do use tables for forms and in some cases where I'm pretty sure the
whole table will be in one file. (and of course.. tabular information..)

Jamie
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Brian Cryer - 22 Jun 2009 09:33 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Are tables still being used for web page layout? Lidl's website comes
> to mind (http://www.lidl.com).

Clearly the answer is yes.

> Would it not be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
> instances when layout with tables would be better?

Personally I think its better to use CSS in *most* cases but to be pragmatic
and accept that there are times when a table is easier and quicker. Like
Gary (see his post) there are times I end up burning time on CSS and then I
fall back to tables for layout - but it tends only to be on a small
component of a page and not the entire page, and is becoming less and less
frequent.
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Andy Dingley - 22 Jun 2009 10:26 GMT
> I am presently using XHTML and CSS for all my web page design needs.

Digression: Why XHTML?  And by "XHTML" you presumably mean that red-
headed stepchild Appendix C XHTML, as real XHTML (still) won't work
with IE.

> However, I still find people use tables to layout content (entire pages) instead of CSS.

Tables are great if what you need is to prioritise grid-based (i.e.
two-dimensional topology) above everything  else, including fluid
resizing and re-flowing to cope with variations in browser window or
font size.  This is a good thing for small embedded data tables, a bad
thing for overall layout of pages.

<table> still has its place. Being a direct child of <body> is rarely
it.

> Are tables still being used for web page layout?

Of course they are. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, just that they
don't know any better.
Jeff - 22 Jun 2009 15:26 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Are tables still being used for web page layout? Lidl's website comes
> to mind (http://www.lidl.com).

  The home page is completely archaic. Note the transitional Doctype. I
suspect a redesign is in the works. In fact the first link I clicked on
brought up this:

http://www.lidl-fairglobe.co.uk/

  which is table free.

> Would it not be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
> instances when layout with tables would be better?

  The most important thing is just to get the job done. But, the trend
is strongly blowing table free (except data and forms).

  If you are making some semblance of a living in web design, go with
the wind. In fact in the stylesheet group there is a recent thread from
a job seeker where they required table less layouts.

  Now, as I've noted here before, just find a 3 column template with
header and footer and use it. There's is almost nothing that can't be
adapted using background images. Don't write a new template for every
new site.

  Jeff

> Cheers,
>
> Andy R.
Jamie - 23 Jun 2009 00:53 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Would it not be better to use CSS in all cases or are there some
>instances when layout with tables would be better?

I once tried to jump on the anti-table bandwagon but found it to be an awful
lot more work than it was worth (and even then, things didn't quite work)

I think of tables like one might think of 'if' statements, I have a
guideline... "if is evil" and I look for ways of structuring code such that I
minimize nested if's.

One way a layman can judge code quality is (IMO) counting the number of if's in
any given block. Even if you don't know much about programming, you can get a
pretty good view of someones code by just examining how many convoluted, nested
if blocks it has.

Yet, just because you CAN set variables and use signal handling, dispatch
tables, etc.. in place of "if".. it doesn't mean you should in every case.

One might borrow the same guideline for tables?

Jamie
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Ben C - 23 Jun 2009 08:47 GMT
[...]
> One way a layman can judge code quality is (IMO) counting the number of if's in
> any given block.

Not just laymen, nor just in your opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity

> Even if you don't know much about programming, you can get a
> pretty good view of someones code by just examining how many convoluted, nested
> if blocks it has.

Unfortunately another coding shibboleth is that early returns and gotos
are evil. This tends to lead to a lot of nested if blocks.

> Yet, just because you CAN set variables and use signal handling, dispatch
> tables, etc.. in place of "if".. it doesn't mean you should in every case.

No, although you're right that it can sometimes be a good idea, mainly
for "data-driven programming".

See http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch09s01.html
Tim Streater - 23 Jun 2009 09:21 GMT
> [...]
> > One way a layman can judge code quality is (IMO) counting the number of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Unfortunately another coding shibboleth is that early returns and gotos
> are evil. This tends to lead to a lot of nested if blocks.

Early returns are good and reduce complexity a lot. I haven't needed to
use a GOTO since 1983.

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Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

Ben C - 23 Jun 2009 11:01 GMT
>> [...]
>> > One way a layman can judge code quality is (IMO) counting the number of
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Early returns are good and reduce complexity a lot. I haven't needed to
> use a GOTO since 1983.

Best way in C programming to do early-returns-with-cleanup in my
opinion. Yes avoid it for general control flow (the usual loops, if, and
switch are much better).

This is the sort of template:

   /* Make sure everything starts off NULL */
   FILE *fp = NULL;
   struct thing *thing = NULL;
   ...
   int ok = 0;

   /* Now allocate, open, initialize, etc. using "goto end" as soon as
    * anything goes wrong ... */

   /* If we get here, everything is set up OK. We aren't even inside an
    * if. This tends to clarify things because the code that actually
    * does interesting stuff is separated from all the code that just
    * tediously checks for errors */

   /* then at the bottom: anything that's not NULL needs cleaning up */
   ok = 1;
end:
   if (!ok)
   {
       /* Things that need cleaning up only if something went wrong */
   }

   /* Things that need cleaning up anyway */
   if (fp) fclose(fp);
   free(thing)
   return ok;

Actually this is a form of data-driven programming, because we're
reducing the number of code-paths by using data (NULL values) to tell us
what got allocated/initialized successfully and what didn't.

In particular it's good to avoid untested code paths, and testing all
the different combinations of error conditions is particularly
difficult. Much better therefore if all errors go to the same place.

When people complain they don't like this style (because they view using
goto as like cycling through red lights), it usually doesn't take me
long to find an incorrect error path in their code.
Nathan Keel - 29 Jun 2009 20:14 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Andy R.

Use whatever works.  Some things may be deprecated, but they are still
supported.  I've seen people use tables because it's still the only
thing that makes sense.
 
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