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Webmaster Forum / Flash / Flash Site Design / March 2004Flash sites inferior. Developers responsible?
Let me get some things established up front: I am not a web developer. I am not a Flash developer. I have no 'stake' -- personal, political, or 'other' -- in seeing Macromedia/Flash technologies live or die -- other than: I know what kind of websites I like (HTML) and I know which kind I DON'T LIKE (Flash). Since day one, I have hated Flash websites. I could probably count the number of 'good' ones I have seen on one hand, and have several fingers remaining, IF I could recall ANY GOOD ONES at all! Instead, what I remember are all the rest: too-slow-running, too-small, over-multimedia'ed, over-scripted pure BLOAT, that appear to be designed by people who think the technology (Flash) is the end, not the means. Don't you developers realize this makes YOU *AND* YOUR TECHNOLOGY look bad?! Do you want to be noted for using the technology that concentrates more on _presentation_ than on _content_?! (rhetorical questions, both: your works already speak for you.) The #1 issue that has annoyed the crap out of me since day one, and FINALLY has prompted me to register for this forum and give you all my $.02 on your development work (now that several years have passed and you don't seem to show ANY sign of being able to address this issue on your own (or of even being aware it's a deficiency, for that matter...)): Are you all aware of the amazing technological innovation known as the 'mousewheel'? Some of you are? OK good. Let's proceed. A mousewheel can be used to assist in many tasks! One of the more common uses is to scroll a web page that contains more text than can fit on the screen at one time. The user 'scrolls' the mousewheel up or down, to see the portions of the text that would otherwise be hidden. (a metaphor for moving ones eyes up or down a physical page of text) OK, enough 'comedic' vehicle. Here's my point: Why don't Flash textboxes support the mousewheel out-of-the-box, and WHY OH WHY don't you developers recognize this GRIEVOUS INADEQUACY and subclass one that does, and then share it with all the newbies?! (By the way, I'm talking to the GOOD developers here... I KNOW there are at least a few of you.) It's the least that you can do, considering that the next-most-efficient means of scrolling text (grabbing the scroll box and dragging) doesn't work properly either!!! (see this site: [L=http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp]http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp[/L]. enter the Flash site, then click 'Features->Squad Tactics'. Now try to scroll the box to the bottom using the 'click and drag the scrollbox' technique. Note that the text doesn't scroll all the way to the bottom. Great job, everyone!!! You all get raises!</sarcasm>) That's right, folks: Flash SEVEN-POINT-OH! Now let's hear those excuses! ------------------------------------------------------- PS - to Macromedia's Flash development team: the coolest possible thing you could do with this technology (short of abolishing it entirely, which wouldn't exactly disappoint me), is to create a feature whereby ANY flash website (no matter how ignorant or stubborn the original developer was) should be able to be rendered into HTML on-demand by the user. (all I care about is the human-consumable content: e.g. text, pictures, links. you can keep the bells and whistles, as well as any proprietary 'secured' content that the user isn't allowed to download.) And, like inclusion of 'credit to Macromedia', inclusion of this feature should be made LAW in the distribution license!! (Any of you who are 'aligned' with my opinions on this subject are probably chuckling right now, knowing that this will never happen. Why?! Because it would prove all-too-frequently, that ACTUAL PRIMARY CONTENT can be delivered MOST-EFFECTIVELY without even MENTIONING the words 'Macromedia Flash'.) HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- PPS - it's worth mentioning, that I'm trying to be a BIT objective while writing this article, and therefore, I'm trying to think of something Flash that has actually amused or entertained me -- that is: let me walk away feeling POSITIVE about Flash, not NEGATIVE. It speaks volumes that the best I can come up with is the [L=Fanta Shokata movies]http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=EA2D35C7-073F-4718-869C-D1B725E0115 F[/L] & goofy standalone animations to be found on all the indie animation/comedy sites! But can I come up with a non-frivolous example? HA! I wouldn't even know where to begin looking! (note: the contrived examples I'd probably find if I started poking around the Macromedia site DO NOT COUNT!) ------------------------------------------------------- There are plenty more gripes I have with Flash and the ways it has been used. But right now, I won't waste our time, for several reasons: #1 - I haven't done the research required to make a truly unassailable case, even though you'd all probably dismiss it as 'just trolling' anyway. #2 - as already stated, other than the occasions where it actively hinders/offends me personally, I couldn't give a hoot whether Macromedia/Flash/Your Livelihood lives or dies. #3 - most of you probably stopped reading when I said 'I [hate Flash]', anyway. #4 - Macromedia's QA & Marketing/Product Proliferation departments stopped sending me paychecks. (Actually, they never started! :P) It is all the next evolution in holding a persons interest long enough to absorb the material. Would you rather read text and still images on TV or see a full blown program about the history of Egypt. The information is the same, the delivery is what makes it successful. A full color brochure is always more memorable then a typed page of text. Moving images and sound will always be more absorbing then a page of html. Take the same content side by side and 9 out of 10 times the person will remember the flash content more. Think back to school...how much of your WWII history do you remember from endless lectures and dry text. Watch Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers and I'll bet you can recite more facts and events. The web is not meant for static content. Soon it will replace your TV. The ability to entertain as you educate, even if it is only to educate about a product, is what makes ANY multimedia presentation far better then static text and HTML. -- Al Winchell www.Amazingwebs.com den.tigersquadron.com although you've outlined several reasons snappo, i'm still curious to know where your obvious disdain for flash comes from? it's just that - surely you would agree that there are brilliant and poor developers in all the disciplines - even HTML. you are obviously uninterested in 'bells and whistles' - fair enough - but i think you may be in the minority - a lot of people like bells and whistles. apart from the problems with the site you mentioned, and the fact that i'm not really into war games, i thought the site wasn't bad. and better for the bells and whistles that flash made possible. you do make some valid points. text boxes in the past have been inconsistently implemented, however since flash 6(MX) scrolling components they have generally been more consistent. and since 7(MX 2004) flash has mouse-wheel support. as this is still a relatively new release probably not enough developers would be using it yet to make a noticable improvement to the web, but here's a link for designers interested: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=A3BDC567C4BE81CE I don't address the mousewheel issue in any of my Flash websites for aerobic reasons. I figure I am contributing to the fitness level of web surfers everywhere when I force them to have to click on a scroll bar and then physically drag it down, as opposed to the much lazier scroll-the-mousewheel option. Although the click-and-drag method can get quite tiring after a while (not to mention that additional .002 seconds it takes EVERY SINGLE TIME!) I do feel this inconvenience is for the greater good. Seriously though, if I had a dime for every time I've heard from someone complaining about the lack of mousewheel functionality at one of my sites I would have 10 cents. (That's including your post, of course.) Gratuitously yours, rob.e9 > Let me get some things established up front: I am not a web developer. I am not > a Flash developer. I have no 'stake' -- personal, political, or 'other' -- in [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > (see this site: [L=http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp]http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp[/ L]. > enter the Flash site, then click 'Features->Squad Tactics'. Now try to scroll > the box to the bottom using the 'click and drag the scrollbox' technique. Note [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > POSITIVE about Flash, not NEGATIVE. It speaks volumes that the best I can come > up with is the [L=Fanta Shokata movies]http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=EA2D35C7-073F-4718-869C-D1B725E 0115 > F[/L] & goofy standalone animations to be found on all the indie > animation/comedy sites! But can I come up with a non-frivolous example? HA! I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > #4 - Macromedia's QA & Marketing/Product Proliferation departments stopped > sending me paychecks. (Actually, they never started! :P) The only thing about Flash sites that bugs the heck out of me is that if you use your back button, the whole page has to reload again. :-) Linda Rathgeber ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Razzle Dazzle - Design Aid #2 - Fireworks visual effects. http://www.webdevbiz.com/pwf/ Victoriana | Theme Pack 03 - Club | http://www.projectseven.com Playing with Fire | http://www.playingwithfire.com Team MM Fireworks Volunteer | www.macromedia.com/go/team ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL Hope you feel better. Because I don't think many people are on your side, my friend. BTW, Robbie, I'll bet your 10 cents this guy invented the mousewheel. It's the only explanation to his ramblings, eh? :) Linda: you can always use "Named Anchors" to utilize the bakc/forard browser buttons in Flash. You know. I've heard quite of bit from both sides of the Flash vs. HTML battle, and I've only come up with ONE decent result: Flash Haters couldn't've POSSIBLY taken the time to learn it, beacuase if they'd [i]had[/i] they would appreciate it alot more. It's a fair thing to say that a VAST number of Flashers (heh...) know HTML. I , for one, do. everyone that works for and with me knows it, as well. My only suggestion: Jump on Yahoo or google or <insert your favorite search engine url here> and search for Flash sites. Some suck fat <CENSORED> , and some rock. the best for you is to look... Start here: [L=Sonicboom.com]http://www.sonicboom.com[/L] then here: [L=XtremeIllusions.net]http://www.Xtremeillusions.net/Loading.swf[/L] or maybe even here: [L=Urbantakeover.co.uk]http://urbantakeover.co.uk[/L] Some of the BEST sites are the ones where you can't even TELL it's flash. If you don't want take the extra time to look at the opposition, how can you critisize it? Ant (A Flasher) Red.Ant.Media I have to agree with that. I;ve been developing for 7 years now and by far the greatest strength of Flash is it's flexibility. People often think of flash simply as a platform with which to deliver funky animations but it is much more. Any experienced java, html or php coder will find flash's ability to integrate dynamically with the aforementioned a blessing in disguise. My largest client os a major software manufacturer and I;ve built several prototype software models for their development team solely in Flash. My only gripe with many Flash developers is the trend in rendering HTMl text on their pages at irritatingly small sizes. Mutli-Layering HTML into Flash - as opposed to the easier option if doing it vice-verse - is a LITTLE more difiicult than MOST are willing to explore. I, for one, and my company, are all about the excitement and challenges of figuring out how to do multi-media integration into/ with Flash. Most aren't about the work, but I love it. As far as the warm, fuzzy feelings: Just order me one full-length fur coat, and we'll call it even! Ant Red.Ant.Media Most of the advantages to Flash are obvious, but as RedAnt said, making Flash able to render as HTML(as an option) is - well I'll say - ridiculous. Most people actually appreciate the advantages, and bloating the Flash Player, not to mention the complexities of making it work like that; all for a small percent of internet users = bad idea. :) It only encourages them and gives them a warm fuzzy feeling.  Signature--------------------------------------- http://www.phageinteractive.com PhageInteractive Ltd. remove mm_ to mail --------------------------------------- 'I wish we lived in a world where it was possible to be religious and think at the same time.' - Jonh Graves Try this site http://www.townandcountrymotel.com > Let me get some things established up front: I am not a web developer. I am not > a Flash developer. I have no 'stake' -- personal, political, or 'other' -- in [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > (see this site: [L=http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp]http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp[/ L]. > enter the Flash site, then click 'Features->Squad Tactics'. Now try to scroll > the box to the bottom using the 'click and drag the scrollbox' technique. Note [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > POSITIVE about Flash, not NEGATIVE. It speaks volumes that the best I can come > up with is the [L=Fanta Shokata movies]http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=EA2D35C7-073F-4718-869C-D1B725E 0115 > F[/L] & goofy standalone animations to be found on all the indie > animation/comedy sites! But can I come up with a non-frivolous example? HA! I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > #4 - Macromedia's QA & Marketing/Product Proliferation departments stopped > sending me paychecks. (Actually, they never started! :P) Yeah, I bet you would rather watch TV than listen to the radio all fekin day. Fekin Moron. > Try this site http://www.townandcountrymotel.com > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > > > (see this site: [L=http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp]http://www.callofduty.com/index.asp[/ > L]. > > enter the Flash site, then click 'Features->Squad Tactics'. Now try to [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > come > > up with is the [L=Fanta Shokata movies]http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=EA2D35C7-073F-4718-869C-D1B725E > 0115 > > F[/L] & goofy standalone animations to be found on all the indie [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > stopped > > sending me paychecks. (Actually, they never started! :P) <parody> Let me get some things established up front: I am not a radio producer. I am not a movie director. I have no 'stake' -- personal, political, or 'other' -- in seeing color and "talkie" movie technologies live or die -- other than: I know what kind of entertainment I like (Radio, Silent Film) and I know which kind I DON'T LIKE (Full color talkies). Since day one, I have hated Full color movies with sound. I could probably count the number of 'good' ones I have seen on one hand, and have several fingers remaining, IF I could recall ANY GOOD ONES at all! Instead, what I remember are all the rest: too-intense, too-hard-to-understand, over-produced, over-directed pure BLOAT, that appear to be designed by people who think the technology (Color and Sound) is the end, not the means. Don't you directors realize this makes YOU *AND* YOUR TECHNOLOGY look bad?! Do you want to be noted for using the technology that concentrates more on _presentation_ than on _content_?! (rhetorical questions, both: your works already speak for you.) </parody> [q] The #1 issue that has annoyed the crap out of me since day one, and FINALLY has prompted me to register for this forum and give you all my $.02 on your development work (now that several years have passed and you don't seem to show ANY sign of being able to address this issue on your own (or of even being aware it's a deficiency, for that matter...)): [/q] It (Flash) is not a defiency, it is a highly evolved technology that is constantly expanding and progressing AS WE SPEAK! Of course some people abuse it, prime example:[L=5 SEC Studio]http://5sec.com[/L], as of currently the site seems to be all about the animation and presentation of information that is of quite a bit lesser value. (no offense if the 5sec designer happens to use these forums) But there are also other sites that i believe provide adiquite presentation to reveal LOADS of helpful content and images spaced and organized just right to provide the rare (but successful) infusement of appropriate information and innovative animation as one complete multimedia experience. example(s) [L=2Advanced]http://2advanced.com[/L] [L=4D Studios]http://4dstudios.tk[/L] [L=Foundstone]http://foundstone.com[/L](integrated w/ html) So you see, unless abused by an unknowing developer, Flash technology is way beyond just a static interface, once infused,programmed, planned, and layed out in the proper manner with corresponding presentation, Flash can have virtually endless possabilities. As web design and the Internet progresses as well this will prove more and more difficult to develop a practical flash experience as the biggest concept behind web and flash design is to create something that is innovative, presents useful information and clearly layed out in a design that is not already duplicated, BUT STILL present it in a fashionable way that suits the company/organization. And if, and ONLY if you can achieve this, then the developer has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of by using Flash technology. <applause> Amen to that. </applause> |
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