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Webmaster Forum / HTML, CSS, Scripts / CSS / October 2007General questions on working with clients
I am currently developing a website for a client, a medical practitioner. A few general issues have come up and I thought I'd ask here to see if I could get some advice. First, what is the best way to get him involved? We had a short initial meeting where we agreed on the basic type of content he wants. I've got a skeleton together which shows the basic layout and navigation. He likes this just fine. However, as I've gone ahead and tried various things, like different sorts of tabs and colour schemes, I am unable to get much in the way of feedback from him. I've sent him emails that outline what I've done in the latest batch of changes and ask for his reaction: does he like X? Would he prefer Y or Z? If he answers at all, the reply is very brief and vague. I don't want to take a lot of his time so I limit myself to one or two contacts a month for fear of being thought a nag but the lack of useful feedback is really hurting my ability to build what he wants. Every time I get a bit of momentum going and want to see if he likes what I'm doing, I get little if any feedback and even that takes weeks. I am totally open to anything he wants to do and am reluctant to just build something without consulting him for fear that it will be completely unlike whatever he had in mind. I've done enough systems development work to know that systems people typically build far more complex and powerful things than customers actually want. Can anyone advise me on how to get him to give me some direction? I don't need him to pre-approve every small change but we need some kind of process where he answers my questions occasionally. To give one example of how things stand, I sent him an email several weeks back where I told him about a rough first draft of a banner I had put on the home page, mentioned that I had three different kinds of navigation tabs on the index for him to examine, and needed some information on what kind of information he wanted in the newsletter, such as who the audience was and who was to compose it (me, him, or his office staff). All I got was a comment that the basic colours weren't quite right yet, suggesting that white and green might look nice. He didn't tell me which of those he wanted as a background and which as the foreground and whether he wanted a dark green or a light green. As you can see, I'm not getting much to work with and I'd like to know how to get more from him. I certainly don't want to take a lot of time from his busy schedule; I feel sure that if I start nagging at him, he will give me LESS feedback, not more. Any constructive suggestions you have would be welcome! Also, while I'm here, let me ask a related technical question. My client is not terribly happy with the basic colour scheme yet so I'm wondering what techniques other web designers use with their clients to choose colours? I'm thinking of cobbling together some kind fo Javascript thing to let him choose from several different colour combinations via a dropdown; each selection will cause a different CSS to be invoked and show him a different possibility. Has anyone else tried anything like this? Or is there a better way? -- Rhino > I am currently developing a website for a client, a medical practitioner. A > few general issues have come up and I thought I'd ask here to see if I could > get some advice. (I snip quote of to and fro between op and client... which I sympathise with but...) Don't mess about, you have some information, right? Just build the site on the info as if that is all there is and choose the colour scheme you like best on the info you have (default is simply what you consider good without feedback). Present it as finished with a 'hope you like it', also with a 'if there is anything you wish to add or change, please advise'. And a bill! Or if you are not confident about this, wait a couple of weeks and then: A bill! The bill always helps to focus the mind, it is the moment of truth. Now, you can send the bill with a friendly note to say that you are happy to make some changes without further charge but make it clear that you expect the client to pay within 14 or 30 days in any case. You don't have to put it rudely, don't be frightened, just businesslike but completely definite. You might choose to simply present the bill with an offer to make further changes on an hourly basis.  Signaturedorayme >> I am currently developing a website for a client, a medical practitioner. >> A [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > simply present the bill with an offer to make further changes on > an hourly basis. Actually, there's no bill involved. He's given me free treatments in his specialty for a year in exchange for building the site. Still, I get the gist of what you're saying. Present him with a finished site and then respond to any reasonable complaints about the content/appearance at that point. I may have to do that, at least with regards to colour/appearance issues. But I'm darned if I know how to produce a newsletter without any information on the content he wants or any discussion on who is going to produce the content. Any ideas?? -- Rhino > "dorayme" <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > ....the bill with an offer to make further changes on > > an hourly basis. > > Actually, there's no bill involved. He's given me free treatments in his > specialty for a year in exchange for building the site. Well, that makes it simple, surely? You do the best you can with what you have and leave it with him with an invitation to supply or add whatever he wants... Unless... unless... O my God... there is something you are not telling us... he has given you a bionic part (like a critical heart device) and will yank it out if you don't come across good with the site... <g> > Still, I get the gist of what you're saying. Present him with a finished > site and then respond to any reasonable complaints about the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Any ideas?? Well, yes and no. Is the newsletter going to be a separate html page for online reading? You can surely simply copy an example and put in 'Lorem ipsum' text. Or make one: an online newsletter is just text and sometimes pics, there are no fixed rules that particularly distinguish them from any other html page that gives information. You can get a nice 'printed flyer' look with a couple of suitably dimensioned divs floated next to each other, tall and not so wide to represent 'front' and 'back' in this style. Where I have had to deal with them, they are either html files made by me or pdfs of printed brochures supplied by clients to which I give a simple link. Signaturedorayme >> "dorayme" <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message >> ....the bill with an offer to make further changes on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > heart device) and will yank it out if you don't come across good > with the site... <g> No, nothing like that ;-) He's a chiropractor, not a cardiologist :-) But I don't want to disappoint him. He has said that if he likes the site, he can get me more business with another chiropractor. I'm hoping that would involve actual payment in money, rather than in services. >> Still, I get the gist of what you're saying. Present him with a finished >> site and then respond to any reasonable complaints about the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > made by me or pdfs of printed brochures supplied by clients to > which I give a simple link. I'm not really worried about the mechanics of producing the newsletter. I've got a lot more concern about obtaining the CONTENT. I suspect he thinks the newsletter will just write itself somehow without any human intervention. I don't think he realizes the effort involved in _composing_ articles (or finding them elsewhere and getting copyright clearances so that we can republish them). Clearly, I'm going to have to communicate that to him. Once he sees the effort involved, he will either abandon the newsletter or choose someone to compose it, either himself, one of his staff or me. I can certainly help develop a way of making the creation of the newsletter relatively painless for him. -- Rhino > I'm not really worried about the mechanics of producing the newsletter. I've > got a lot more concern about obtaining the CONTENT. I suspect he thinks the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > develop a way of making the creation of the newsletter relatively painless > for him. If he is not coming with the content on a newsletter now, imagine him finding time and having the motivation to update the *news* it in the future! Be bold and leave it out. Just do not mention it to him again. Leave it to him to bring it up if he is keen enough. And then, if he is still vague about it, you have two options, (1) Sure, please supply content. or (my preference) (2) I am starting to learn chiropractic techniques myself and there is this little bone manipulation I am working on to do with the neck. Would you mind lying down here and allow me to ... Signaturedorayme r> Actually, there's no bill involved. He's given me free treatments in his r> specialty for a year in exchange for building the site. Be advised, this is not a good deal if he's a proctologist. Especially if he's not happy with your work. Ted Hi Rhino, I've found it's often difficult to keep certain clients involved in the design/development process. I like to treat the first meeting as if it's the only chance I get with the client to receive the information I need to develop their site. So I better take the lead and make the most of it! I take a notepad and laptop to the meeting. Before the meeting, I know what I need in order to begin. Who's the audience, what does the client want to website to do for his/her business (usually a more fruitful question than 'why do you want a website?'), where's the content coming from and when? Stuff like that. Again, before the meeting, I've identified some websites from other folks in their field and saved the URLs (we'll be visiting those on thelaptop during the meeting). I also id some websites with different layout schemes, navigation formats, contact forms, color schemes, etc. These are resources that I think I might be able to use to get concrete decisions made by the client about critical design choices. As I go through these resources with the client, I make notes about what they like and -- also important -- what they don't like. At the end of the meeting, I review these things with the client verbally. I also establish a development timeline and get the client's agreement about how reviews and other communication will happen. Getting the website 'live' on time requires client (or someone the client designates as a contact) responding to emails or getting me content as they agreed. This isn't a perfect system but with a client who doesn't understand what goes into a site or that web design is a collaborative process, it gets me a nice chunk of info to get started. Oh, and did I say I get a nice chunk of money as a deposit. Like someone said earlier, making a payment helps keep the client focused on the project. I know you said you're doing a trade, but don't allow the year to begin AFTER you're done! The year should begin when you start the project so there's an equal investment of the client. HTH, Bill > Hi Rhino, > I've found it's often difficult to keep certain clients involved in [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > HTH, > Bill Thanks for the advice. I think there's a lot I can use from it on my _next_ client. For _this_ client, I think I'm just going to have to do as much as I can, then ask him what changes he wants and do them. I have a feeling that once he realizes the newsletter won't generate itself automatically, he will either abandon it when he realizes that he doesn't have any specific ideas of what he wants in it, or he'll contract with me to do it. I'd only agree to the latter if he can give me some idea of what it should contain and where I should get it. SignatureRhino rhino schreef: > I am currently developing a website for a client, a medical practitioner. A > few general issues have come up and I thought I'd ask here to see if I could > get some advice. Sure. > First, what is the best way to get him involved? We had a short initial > meeting where we agreed on the basic type of content he wants. I've got a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Would he prefer Y or Z? If he answers at all, the reply is very brief and > vague. He wanted to have a website, and he had some (vague?) idea of the kind of content he wanted. I'd be surprised if he had any articulated opinions about color schemes and navigation and things like that. If I were you I would make a lay-out, make some stylesheets with different color-schemes and then present the whole lot giving him the final choice. > I don't want to take a lot of his time so I limit myself to one or two > contacts a month for fear of being thought a nag but the lack of useful > feedback is really hurting my ability to build what he wants. He probably doesn't know what to say. At this point he might even be wondering why he wanted a site anyway. I'm not saying it's your fault, but he may not have realized the extend of his own involvement in the whole process. > Every time I > get a bit of momentum going and want to see if he likes what I'm doing, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > typically build far more complex and powerful things than customers actually > want. Well, like I said before: he may not even know what he wants (in detail). > Can anyone advise me on how to get him to give me some direction? I don't > need him to pre-approve every small change but we need some kind of process > where he answers my questions occasionally. Just go ahead. He may be grateful in the end. And if he isn't, you can always confront him with the efforts you took to get his attention before. > To give one example of how things stand, I sent him an email several weeks > back where I told him about a rough first draft of a banner I had put on the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > as a background and which as the foreground and whether he wanted a dark > green or a light green. I think that you -being the expert in this relation- should make some choices here. I don't think that white text on a lightgreen background would be advisable. > As you can see, I'm not getting much to work with and I'd like to know how > to get more from him. I certainly don't want to take a lot of time from his > busy schedule; I feel sure that if I start nagging at him, he will give me > LESS feedback, not more. Yep, you might be right. > Also, while I'm here, let me ask a related technical question. My client is > not terribly happy with the basic colour scheme yet so I'm wondering what [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > possibility. Has anyone else tried anything like this? Or is there a better > way? There are some nice sites, where you can make and evaluate different color schemes. http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html http://www.colorschemer.com/online.html > -- > > Rhino Good luck SignatureRob > rhino schreef: >> I am currently developing a website for a client, a medical practitioner. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > but he may not have realized the extend of his own involvement in the > whole process. I strongly suspect you're right :-) Mind you, I'm using to working in collaborative environments where users and systems people worked together fulltime on a dedicated basis to solving problems. This is clearly a different situation and I'm still trying to figure out how to work in it. >> Every time I get a bit of momentum going and want to see if he likes what >> I'm doing, I get little if any feedback and even that takes weeks. I am [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Well, like I said before: he may not even know what he wants (in detail). I think you're right. But he's got to give me more than he is! Even if he lets me decide on colours and appearance and all of that, I can't just conjure up newsletters without some major input from him on content. We've also got to agree on a process for producing it. Even if we agree that I will write it, he needs to tell me how often it will come out, what the articles will be about, how much material to write, etc. And he has to make some decisions about how it will be distributed - via email or just published on the site - so that I can set that up. >> Can anyone advise me on how to get him to give me some direction? I don't >> need him to pre-approve every small change but we need some kind of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And if he isn't, you can always confront him with the efforts you took to > get his attention before. I'm inclined to agree with you. I can certainly take decisions on the cosmetic stuff and then modify as necessary as he sees the completed site. But I don't know how to get him to discuss the newsletter. I have a feeling it will simply be dropped once he realizes that the content has to be composed by someone, with some significant investment in time. >> To give one example of how things stand, I sent him an email several >> weeks back where I told him about a rough first draft of a banner I had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > choices here. I don't think that white text on a lightgreen background > would be advisable. Agreed! I know that white text on a light green background (or vice versa) will be semi-invisible. >> As you can see, I'm not getting much to work with and I'd like to know >> how to get more from him. I certainly don't want to take a lot of time [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html > http://www.colorschemer.com/online.html The first of those two links at least has some documentation (in the Help section) explaining how it is meant to be used. It's not particularly clear but I can probably puzzle it out. But I have no idea what I should be doing with the second link. Do i just pick a base colour from the index on the left (or the colour grid at the bottom) and then use the other colours that appear about the grid helter-skelter throughout the site? Or am I supposed to choose just a small number of those colours and limit myself to those?? >> -- >> >> Rhino > > Good luck Thanks for all of your suggestions! -- Rhino >> http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html >> http://www.colorschemer.com/online.html > > I have no idea what I should be doing > with the second link. You might go to the colorschemer.com home page instead and looking through the gallery. You can even search for "blue" (or whatever) and it will show you all the schemes using some shade of blue. You might find something suitable for your client, or at least it may spark some other ideas of your own. SignatureBerg >>> http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html >>> http://www.colorschemer.com/online.html [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something suitable for your client, or at least it may spark some other > ideas of your own. Okay, fair enough. I'm still not sure about the best way of presenting colour schemes to the client. If I bring him a dozen schemes, he'll just find they all blur together and seem the same (at least, that's what happens for _me_). If I bring him only two or three strikingly different schemes, I'm concerned that he'll feel boxed into choosing from those. If he doesn't actually like any of them, it seems unlikely that he will like the site as a whole. Also, he may feel very disappointed with the web in general as offering too few choices. Hmm, maybe I'll "assign" him to having a look around the web on his own and finding a site whose colour scheme he likes. Then I can imitate that scheme with his content.... SignatureRhino > I'm still not sure about the best way of presenting colour schemes to the > client. If I bring him a dozen schemes, he'll just find they all blur > together and seem the same (at least, that's what happens for _me_). If I > bring him only two or three strikingly different schemes, I'm concerned that > he'll feel boxed into choosing from those. You have to set limits or you'll be working hundreds of hours on this without getting anything done. If you give him too many choices he may never make a decision anyway. Present him with 2 or 3 that might be suitable for a business such as his. Tell him they are not set in stone, but are just a place to start. Go from there. BTW, are you just showing color swatches, or are you doing mockups with different color schemes? A mockup is probably better for the client. It's hard to visualize what the site might look like from just a few colored squares. > Hmm, maybe I'll "assign" him to having a look around the web on his own and > finding a site whose colour scheme he likes. That's usually a good idea, too, but then you're waiting on him again. SignatureBerg |
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